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January 28, 2007



Why oh why did you add that link to Twenty Major's blog? I was taking it all so seriously and then I read that. I nearly peed my pants. I decided to condense my thesis on religion to the following comment:

Religion cannot be a “neutral force”. By its nature, regardless of what form, it requires the believer of the religion to judge those who do not believe in said religion’s doctrine. And it becomes the goal of the believer to “convert” or “save” or even “kill” the un-believer. It’s like a gun. I have heard countless times, “Guns don’t kill people. People kill people.” But, what is the sole purpose of a gun, if not to take life. By its design, it cannot be neutral. I probably won't get any kudos for that comment. :) But, my point is that even the nicest Christian or Catholic or Muslim or whatever you may meet is still wondering if you have experienced the love of Allah or El Shaddai or Yahweh or who ever. Maybe that's what's missing in the debate between atheists and the religious. Neither will allow the other to live and let live for each will always think the other is a fool.


And P.S. Some of the greatest 'Ah-Ha' moments for myself are those times when I'm flying and I look down at the world and realize just how beautiful it is, how much potential it has and humans have and how much time I waste worrying about the silliest things.


Jama, for once I am not going to shout loud curses at you.

You are right - religion is not neutral. If it were, why believe in the first place?

However, some of the points I tried to make in earlier ramblings were along the lines of what Mr. Orr states - I can accept scientific fact, such as evolution, and still believe that there is a God behind it.

Mr. Dawkins' (again, in my humble opinion) comes off as an egotistical blow-hard, who insinuates you are an idiot for believing in such a thing.

Even in that photo of desolation, there is awesome power in it's beauty - that's something I hang my hat on.

Jett Loe

Ah yes but of course Mr. Phil 'beauty' is a human construct. Perhaps creatures from another world would not even be able to conceptualise 'beauty' - and if they did have something analogous their ideas of beauty would be very different.

Jett Loe

And yes Dawkins does come off as a dick.


Oh, Phil. You can shout loud curses at me. I'll just smack you with a juice carafe and knock you over.

Thank you, Bas!


Jett - True...but being human is what sets us apart from other creatures (that we know of)...being a unique character of humans, generally speaking (yes, I suppose the smell of hamburger could be considered "beautiful" to a dog, but he doesn't have the congnizance to realize it). So why are we so unique (on our planet)? Why "just us"?

Jama - Damn you!!!

Jett Loe

Why does there have to be a reason behind 'just us'? Many folks think this question comes from humans propensity to find causality in things - our desire to find causes behind all things, (which in some of its silliest manifestations one finds in superstition - that black cat crossing the road is the reason for a happy occurrence later in the day, (in Ireland black cats are lucky - the opposite of the States).

As for unique - I don't know - anybody who's seen the Steve Ballmer 'monkey-boy' dance knows we're just another one of the species of apes on this planet :-)


Ah, yes Jett but now you move into the mystical with comments about causality. Synchronicity or signs from God, however you want to explain it, does have a deep effect on people, including myself. "There are no accidents" is the title of a book I was once given and though most of it is silly, one does have to wonder if there isn't some kind of force moving us, and it is as you said in your initial post that to the individual the experience is real, and in that sense not a delusion.

We are goofy little monkeys, we do want to feel unique and we won't want to feel alone so we worry and we fuss and hurt ourselves and each other. It's weird and there are no answers so I think I'll just go get a coffee and put it down for awhile. Monkeys love coffee.

Phil- HI-YA!!!! I am a kung fu master. You will not defeat me.


I guess the bottom line is you can go 'round and 'round with the subject. Like Jama says, either you feel it or you don't -

And you are certainly correct in that upbringing has a lot to do with definitely sets the foundation - but unless you have your own experiences to reinforce it, I don't think it would stick (or, at least be nothing more than a casual acknowledgement).

When Jama mentions "synchronicity", I have some pretty profound instances that have made me believe what I believe - and I've recently had my doubts, believe me....

Complex stuff, to be sure, but again the whole "atheism" thing is the same "cause-and-effect"....finding proof as to why we shouldn't believe in God.

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