The Iraq War and the Virginia Tech Massacre

I don't often read the online magazine Salon as I find its tone a bit smug in a Guardian kind of way, but I recommend this essay by Gary Kamiya:

A Tale of Two Horrors

The essay is obvious and broad but maybe that's what's required these days to wake people up to the reality of what the U.S. Federal Government has wrought.

Comments

[Phil]

((wondering if he should comment w/o reading it, as he does most other posts of this nature))

[Jett Loe]

Oh sure, why not? Plus, I should have mentioned you may have to skip through an ad to get to the article.

On second thought why not read the article Phil?

[Phil]

Ahhhh - I don't know.

I will go ahead and surmise that this guy is complaining about our right to bear arms (as if eliminating that will keep people from obtaining guns and shooting other people) and that we're a gun-crazy society and love to blow up other countries (maybe true).

[Jett Loe]

Nope. Read the article Mr. Phil.

[Robert Sands]

Absolute Bullshit!!!
If we are to believe any thing this guy writes, in this article, then we must also believe he is clarvoyant. He sure seems to know exactly what all the players he writes about are or were thinking at any given point in time. I wish I had a crystal ball like this guy.

[Phil]

(sigh) Fine.

[Jett Loe]

Quote from the essay re Virginia Tech:

"As humans do, we try to ensure that this awful spectacle of death was not for nothing. Hence our national soul-searching and debate. How could this happen? Is our society somehow to blame? Our values? Our gun laws? What could we have done differently to save this tortured soul?

But half a world away, similar horrors are happening every day -- horrors, unlike Seung-Hui Cho's slaughter, for which America bears direct responsibility. And we feel nothing."

Re: Robert Sands comment - It's not bullshit to say that the U.S. is directly responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis - I understand that we don't want to believe it.

WE'RE THE BAD GUYS.

DO YOU GET IT?

IN THIS STORY - IN THIS NARRATIVE - IN THIS MOVIE - THE U.S. IS THE VILLAIN.

I wish it wasn't true but it is. The U.S. is engaged in a horrible war that has directly destroyed it's reputation across the globe. Yet many I speak to about this in the States are in complete denial about this.

The essay ends thusly:

"Because Donne was right, and every man's death diminishes us all. Because the Bible is right, and we must not kill. And those who would do good by waging war often end up becoming the very thing they feared: killers."

I think he's right.

[Phil]

OK I read it.

You might call me to be one in denial, but this article tries to paint a black & white image when it is anything but. We bear direct responsibilty for Iraqi civilians being killed? But not the fundamentalists who kill the vast majority of them? He doesn't mention the soldier in Iraq who is approached by an Iraqi, frantically begging him for help - waving for him to follow - he does, only to be lead into a vacant building where a bomb in a knapsack is waiting. The Iraqi in need of help is now nowhere to be found. Is it any wonder civilians are killed in situations such as these?

We have soldiers over there who were asked to do one thing - remove Saddam from power. They did that. Now, they are trying to keep the very same people who would blow up every building in the U.S. if given the chance, and kill every Jew on the planet if given the chance - from taking over.

The fact that Iraq was/is not an arena we should have ventured into is not really in debate here. I congratulate him on having 20/20 hindsight. If the guy wants to write an 'anti-war' piece, it isn't that hard to do. He'll get lots of favoritism. In retrospect, their people were probably better off living in fear of his dictatorship - I have heard the same from soldiers I know. (It's funny how you hear about "Save Darfur" everywhere these days -- if it took military action...I wonder how people would feel about Darfur then?)

The problem is how do we leave? He doesn't care to answer that question. He only wants to point out the obvious. The prolonging of this war isn't because it's fun - it's because Iraq will turn into a civil war torn death-bed if we did it now.

Also, I take a little bit of umbrage at the author's use of the words "murder" and "kill", which he likes to interchange as if they mean the same things. He blames America for the "murder" of Iraqis - which from the soldier's point of view couldn't be further from the truth. Plus, nowhere in the Bible does it say "thou shalt not kill". Look it up. I dare you to find it with those words.

Then there's "we owe them our humanity" -- what does this mean? Is he truly sincere that he thinks America doesn't care? There is story after story of rebuilding and aid going on right now that is NEVER reported on in Iraq. We blew the hell out of Japan-- how are they doing these days? Germany?

There's way too much to say here. I'll leave it there at the semi-long-crazy-rant.

[Jett Loe]

Hey there Phil - thanks for reading! :)

"We bear direct responsibility for Iraqi civilians being killed?"

Yes. We invaded a country that did not attack us / toppled the existing government and did not provide for the well-being of the populace. This is criminal and the people who ordered the attack should be tried for war crimes.

"We have soldiers over there who were asked to do one thing - remove Saddam from power."

Asked by who? They were ordered in and the rationale for doing so: toppling Saddam / finding WMDs / preventing an attack / establishing democracy / 'fighting them there so we don't have to fight here' changes constantly depending on which way the political winds are blowing - this tells us they are lies.

"Now, they are trying to keep the very same people who would blow up every building in the U.S. if given the chance, and kill every Jew on the planet if given the chance - from taking over."

Who are we talking about here? The people that are engaged in a civil war against each other? The U.S. is the least of their problems. In fact there is no 'they' - the conflation of various sects together under the 'the War of Terror' rubric is another big lie by these con-men in office.

"If the guy wants to write an 'anti-war' piece, it isn't that hard to do."

Yep, you're right. Though I think the piece is more 'anti-killing'.

"He blames America for the "murder" of Iraqis - which from the soldier's point of view couldn't be further from the truth."

The U.S. is directly responsible for these deaths for the reasons stated above. If one wants to be charitable you could label the Bush Administration 'criminally negligent', rather than deliberately trying to f**k things up.

"Then there's "we owe them our humanity" -- what does this mean? Is he truly sincere that he thinks America doesn't care?"

He probably does. In the piece he contrasts the outpouring of sympathy for Virginia Tech students with the silence over the deaths of hundreds of Iraqis in just the past couple of days . And I agree. America doesn't care. If it did it would do something.

"There is story after story of rebuilding and aid going on right now that is NEVER reported on in Iraq. We blew the hell out of Japan-- how are they doing these days? Germany?"

I wish we were rebuilding Iraq like we did Japan and Germany. But we're not. The Iraq middle class / anybody who can get any cash together / is fleeing and the country has turned into a slaughter house. If it were up to me I'd reinstate the draft and take care of business.

[Jama]

Harsh words, but I think very true.

Jett: What do you mean 'take care of business'? What would the draft solve?

Phil: Exodus 20:13 and Deuteronomy 5:17 "You shall not murder".(NIV)You're right.

Very interesting stuff, fellas.

[Phil]

Jett - The Californian in you...:)

I don't think anyone would debate you (well, some people would but I wouldn't) that the Bush administration has completely f--d up the entire war, including the reasons for entering into it. I will admit to being a Bush supporter in the beginning, but will now also admit how horribly they've handled things from start to finish.

I'll pick out a couple of points:

There is definitely a "they". "They" are the people that continually blow up themselves and anyone else within range, make statements (as the Iranian President does on almost a daily basis) that the Jews should just "move to Europe" (when in fact, he'd prefer they be dead), are raising their children to hate America - and that they will be martyrs if they would only sacrifice themselves to kill us....etc etc etc.

"Anti-killing" - it's a side-effect to war. Unfortunately, there are wars and sometimes they must be fought. Sometimes for the right reasons, sometimes for the wrong. After 9/11, you wouldn't find someone to say it was wrong. Now, if you're simply anti-war, that's another story.

Sympathy - Well, if you're going for 'cause-and-effect' then I can't argue that Iraqis die because Islamic fundamentalists blew them up because they hate America because we're in Iraq. I probably fall in the category of "unsympathetic" - my excuse, I guess is I am bombarded with negativity day in and day out. I still have to wake up, go to work, make money, feed my kids, my wife, keep a roof over our head (thank God I can). You can't just stop and camp out at the Bush compound like Cindy Sheehan.

Rebuilding - we can't rebuild yet like we did in Japan ...because they keep blowing shit up. If they'd leave well enough alone we could/would.

I am not the most politically attuned person in the world. I think everyone in politics is full of sh--. But I do think there are some over the top accusations about who Bush is, as a man, and that "they" aren't as bad as some think.

Jama - I think what Jett means is if we reinstated the draft, people would want us out of there really, really quick.

[Jett Loe]

Hey Phil - re your post:

"I don't think anyone would debate you (well, some people would but I wouldn't) that the Bush administration has completely f--d up the entire war, including the reasons for entering into it. I will admit to being a Bush supporter in the beginning, but will now also admit how horribly they've handled things from start to finish."

In addition to being incompetent there is no question now that there has been a systemic pattern of gross deceit, mendacity, hubris, cronyism and criminal behavior across all sectors of the administration.

"I'll pick out a couple of points:

There is definitely a "they". "They" are the people that continually blow up themselves and anyone else within range, make statements (as the Iranian President does on almost a daily basis) that the Jews should just "move to Europe" (when in fact, he'd prefer they be dead), are raising their children to hate America - and that they will be martyrs if they would only sacrifice themselves to kill us....etc etc etc."

You're falling for the marketing plan created by the people who wanted the U.S. to occupy Iraq for reasons other than stated. You mention an Iranian president - the Iranians are not Arabs - they're a completely different ethnic group - who practice a totally different form of Islam then the people who flew into the buildings in 9/11, (who were Wahabbist Arabs, mainly from Saudi Arabia).

Imagine if the IRA blew up a bomb in the U.S. and the U.S. came over to Northern Ireland and started rounding up Protestants - you get the idea.

The creation of a fictional 'they' - a new enemy for America - is one of the greatest lies perpetuated on the American people in U.S. history and I would argue one of the greatest foreign policy blunders any U.S. administration has ever made, (I doubt that they had a hard time selling this to Bush - if it needed to be sold at all: Bush's own Chief Counter-Terrorism adviser Richard A. Clarke has written in his book that he was horrified to discover while talking to Bush at a party not long before the start of the Iraq invasion that Bush had no idea there were multiple sects of Islam, Shias and Sunnis, in Iraq).

""Anti-killing" - it's a side-effect to war. Unfortunately, there are wars and sometimes they must be fought. Sometimes for the right reasons, sometimes for the wrong. After 9/11, you wouldn't find someone to say it was wrong. Now, if you're simply anti-war, that's another story."

In human history unfortunately war is sometimes necessary. The Iraq War was not one of those times.

"Sympathy - Well, if you're going for 'cause-and-effect' then I can't argue that Iraqis die because Islamic fundamentalists blew them up because they hate America because we're in Iraq. I probably fall in the category of "unsympathetic" - my excuse, I guess is I am bombarded with negativity day in and day out. I still have to wake up, go to work, make money, feed my kids, my wife, keep a roof over our head (thank God I can). You can't just stop and camp out at the Bush compound like Cindy Sheehan."

Of course. The question is what are the responsibilities of the people who fund, (pay taxes), the criminal activity of the United States? I don't have the answer.

"Rebuilding - we can't rebuild yet like we did in Japan ...because they keep blowing shit up. If they'd leave well enough alone we could/would."

We can't rebuild like we did in Japan for many reasons.

Listing them would take a another post - but the Administration's rhetorical trick of conflating a Japan or Germany, (countries of Empire with war machines that straddled the globe), with Iraq is now past laughable.

Imagine the U.S. in the late 40's saying "Well, we can't institute the Marshall plan cause those Japs keep blowing stuff up" - we can't fix it because from the top down the entire project is based on lies, criminality and corruption - the fact that nobody care about the war-profiteering of companies like Halliburton in the Iraq War shows you that people know instinctively that this conflict is not the 'great war/struggle' that Bush has talked about but something entirely different: it's more like a failed business venture that has destroyed the brand of the U.S.A. abroad and unfortunately killed thousands of 'those people' 'over there'.

"I am not the most politically attuned person in the world. I think everyone in politics is full of sh--. But I do think there are some over the top accusations about who Bush is, as a man, and that "they" aren't as bad as some think."

I don't know what Bush is like as a man, he seems charming - looks like he would be fun to hang out with at a ball game - but as President I would argue his incompetence and malfeasance will be seen to have shortened the life-span of the U.S. by at least 50 years.

"Jama - I think what Jett means is if we reinstated the draft, people would want us out of there really, really quick."

Nope I really do think we should reinstate the draft.

[Salem MacGourley]

See, I was going to make a much longer comment, but Jett beat me to it. Let's focus on They, as he did. I have to agree, there is NO they. Any time you're dealing the fabled "terrorist", there is no They. It's the wolf in the woods, the enemy in the fog.

Let's look at some of the "They" the US government has labelled:

>Palestinians "Black September" in Munich.
>Cubans opposed to Castro that bombed Flight 455.
>Japanese religious sect Aum Shinrikyo who released Sarin gas in the subways of Tokyo.
>Timothy McVeigh, a US citizen, who bombed the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building.
>American "anti-abortion extremist" Eric Robert Rudolph who bombed Centennial Olympic Park
>The IRA for the Omagh bombing.

This is only a partial list, of course, but it only goes to show, if you're bandying about "They" as a specific term, you're apparently defining it as "everyone but yourself", which is paranoid nearly to Hollywood feature-film levels.

PS - Jett, you think that's enough to set off ECHELON?

[Phil]

Salem - I realize there are all variations of nutjobs across the globe..even within our own citizenship. I'm just referring to the "they" within the Muslim sect. Whatever sect they are, there's not much doubt that they hate us.

Jett - Good points...I don't think Bush is really a bad guy, he just has really, really, really bad advisors. It just goes back to when it all started - we all thought Iraq was necessary at the time, based on what we were told. We were just told wrong. I don't disagree there.

[Brabazon]

Everyone likes a good revenge western, but sometimes it seems like America has a deep-rooted obsession with getting revenge...
Is it so ingrained in the culture that 'revenge' is now the default response to everything? It's a big, powerful country, so why the insecurity? Watching those videos of the Virginia shooter it seems apparent that he was driven by some kind of 'revenge' as well, although it's not totally apparent what had been done to him to warrant such a response. He had built up his 'enemies' out of all proportion in his own mind in order to justify what he was about to do. A bit like the circumstances leading up to the invasion of Iraq, in a way...

I blame Clint Eastwood. Hang him high! :)

[allan]

Phil, not to pile on, but I gotta say that I, and many, many people I know, knew with certainty that going into Iraq was not only unnecessary, but at worst, a mistake, at most, criminal.

Powell's speech to the UN was embarrassing. He even looked visibly uncomfortable presenting it.

There was never a valid reason to go there, there was never a viable plan for success. And the powers that be don't appear to care they turned universal sympathy towards the US into near universal mistrust in the matter of 18 months.

[Phil]

Allan - if you knew the intial reports of WMDs were bogus, you're a better man than I.

[Jett Loe]

During the build-up to the Iraq war there was coverage in the media over here about how the war was being sold to the U.S. public - I could be mistaken but I recall that the general consensus among the populace in the U.K. at that time was that there were no WMDs in Iraq and the people of the U.S. were being sold a 'bill of goods'.

[Mr. Closets]

It is unfortunate that the young people in our military must pay the ultimate sacrifice for the greedy and incompetent adminstration in the USA. We will be paying the price for electing these "big busines representatives" to office for decades to come.